Trade vetoed - your input is vital

[MadLove 0]

If ever I needed top-gun FF guru feedback, now is it. Turned out longer than I wanted, but I felt I needed to provide as much documentation as necessary.

 

12-team $$$ league using CBS - we start 1qb, 2rb, 2wr

 

My team (MadLove): Collins, Brunell//SA, Rudi, LJ, PPass, TravisH//Chad, Fitz, JSmith, Roy (5-2)

 

His team (Alameda): McNair, Volek//DD, Tiki, TJones//Burle, Porter, Mason, Kennison, Vicius (0-7)

 

The trade: I give Collins, JSmith, PPass --- I get Tiki, McNair, Volek

 

I put the trade into the system last evening... sent the commish a friendly email notifying him of the trade... this was his reply:

 

Since you brought it up I think that it does benefit you more than Eric in that I feel that everyone in the deal is rather ordinary except Tiki. RB's are at a premium and ones that do not split time and carries with a teammate are really valuable. Perhaps others like Collins and Jimmy Smith more than I do. But WR's are very replaceable and for my money collins is only slightly better than McNair (if McNair is healthy).

 

However if I was alameda with 3 good backs I could afford to trade Barber if I got help at 2 positions. But does he?  He has plenty of WR's.  Put it this way I know it makes you better and I'm sure as hell not worried  about his 0-7 ass.

 

To that, I responded:

 

he and I were trying to get something done since week 5.  does the trade benefit me *more*?  I hope so... there is still a component of competition and wanting to "make out well" when trading - however, this latest proposal was his (after knowing that I wanted Barber or TJ)... initially, it was Barber/McNair for Collins/JSmith.  I analyzed it, got a dozen favorable opinions from veteran FF diehards, and, liking Barber and feeling confident with my WR depth, I felt the trade was fair and balanced.  McNair's health is a question mark (and I feel Volek will be taking the snaps soon anyway), so I asked for Volek and offered Pass... he liked it.  Truth is, with Lamont looking like he will blow up, Collins is going to be the stud he is, and JSmith - look, if he didnt have two ugly games in a row, he would be a top 10 WR right now (maybe higher).  He has a cakewalk schedule left as well, making him that much more valuable. 

 

Yes, I had some reservations (even though everyone has said I have no reason to) about the fact that Alameda is 0-7.  However, his team is only 1 of 2 teams in the league that has the depth at RB to give what I want/need (ask PoleCat - I tried getting Dillon, Caddy or that wuss Chrissy Brown) - meanwhile, Jimmy Smith would be getting his points for my reserve squad.  Alameda's WRs have sucked.  He's been asking for one of mine (since I'm stacked) for 2 or 3 weeks. Burleson is JUST getting back, but hasnt done sh!t for him - in fact, it's his WR situation that has lost him some games (along with air mcnair).  The guy wants to win some games and save face - can you blame him?  If I were 0-7 (have you ever been?), I would be trying my damndest to beat that same line of mofos that waxed me the first wave.  He likes Smith (who will be his #1 WR) and has a dire need for QB points (Collins was my 4th pick of the draft)  My RB situation concerns me (Rudi especially) so I wanted a feature back.  I did well with Tiki Barber (who will be my alternating #2 RB).  My downside?  There's plenty Andy.  I'm dissolving my QB insurance and putting all my eggs in Brunell's basket.  He goes down?  I'll have to play Patrick Ramsey.  I'm letting a stud #1 WR with a CAKEWALK schedule go.  I now have Roy Williams as my #3.  Chad or Fitz goes down?  I'm scrambling for a flier - meanwhile, he's probably going to beat me week 11 (check it out)... how ###### would that be)  Respectfully, I think I've given you enough of an 'explanation' than what is necessary - I have faith that you will be the commish right now, not the doctor (his team is called Dr. xxxx)

 

that was last night.... never heard back from him on this counter-argument...

 

then today, there are several league msg posts from the commish, all talking about how "it looks like there were 4 vetoes, but the cbs system sent out an incorrect email about something or other blah blah" in fact, I received two emails from CBS, one saying the trade was vetoed, then one saying the trade was accepted... and then finally another CBS email saying the trade was vetoed... and then, the commish issues this gem:

 

TRADE WAS VETOED - There were 4 vetoes against the trade at which point it was

taken off therefore Rude Dudes Locos Mocos and Polecat

didn't even vote. If you take away the two teams trading

that means that there were 4 no's out of the most 7 votes

maybe even less.  The only reason you might have seen it go

up on transactions page for a short time was because I hit

the wrong button when trying to find a previous screen with

the votes total on it. I am sure Madlove and Alameda will

feel angry about this that is the down side of trading it is

personal when your trade gets vetoed. But then we should ALL

VOTE on if we think we should allow a higher number of

vetoes. I have found this out over the years. IF A TRADE

SEEMS TO BENEFIT A STRONG TEAM WITH A WINNING RECORD IT GETS

VETOED. IF IT BENEFITS THE WEAKER TEAM WITH A LOSING RECORD

IT GOES THROUGH. That has been my experience and I think

that my perception is that Tiki Barber was the only premium

player in this deal a stud RB who doesn't split carries. All

the other players weren't as valuable as a guy who was the

17th draft pick. So MadLove, a 5-2 power team benefited the

most. Just an opinion and a perception. So when we finish

the poll on the home page re two games a week next year we

can vote on tie breakers or trade vetoes. Sorry to our two

teams but it isn't ever personal even if it feels that way.

The Commish

 

This is the 1st year of this league. I don't know the commish or any of the other team owners, but commish is friends or relatives with most owners. Commish has best record at 6-1, me at 5-2 but with more FF points. Damn, I know this is way too long... I dont know what to say or do at this point - please, give me some impressions of this issue and how i should deal with it.

[ROCKET 0]

I don't blame the guy for not wanting an 0-7 team to help you out. If it was a team that had a shot at the playoffs then I'd be OK with it. Scrub teams with no shot at the playoffs should keep their stud players and not help other teams in the hunt. I agree with the veto. Stop your belly-aching

[BengalsFan 0]

I don't blame the guy for not wanting an 0-7 team to help you out. If it was a team that had a shot at the playoffs then I'd be OK with it. Scrub teams with no shot at the playoffs should keep their stud players and not help other teams in the hunt. I agree with the veto. Stop your belly-aching

What type of record would you say still has a shot to make the playoffs?

[ROCKET 0]

I don't blame the guy for not wanting an 0-7 team to help you out. If it was a team that had a shot at the playoffs then I'd be OK with it. Scrub teams with no shot at the playoffs should keep their stud players and not help other teams in the hunt. I agree with the veto. Stop your belly-aching 

What type of record would you say still has a shot to make the playoffs?

I agree there is a grey area there but 0-7 sure doesn't qualify.

[Raistlin 0]

Record shouldn't affect whether a trade is vetoed or not.

 

Bottom line is this trade is probably a bit unbalanced, but definitely not in the veto category. He gives a better QB and a solid WR, and gets a better RB. The other guy obviously seriously needs a QB and WR upgrade, and just because you're 0-7 doesn't mean you don't want to continue to compete.

[mntom 0]

It should not matter is the person has no chance to make the playoffs. It is a fair trade which benefits both teams. Isn't that what a trade is supposed to do? Also, I don't care if I am in last place in my league or not, I am always trying to improve my team. If you look at J. Smith's upcoming schedule, it is very possible that he is a top 10 receiver down the stretch. And Collins was drafted far ahead of McNair in most drafts. I see no problem with this trade. In fact, it may benefit the Collins/Smith side of the trade more in the long run.

[MadLove 0]

So i'm being a "belly-acher"? That's it? :ph34r:

[ROCKET 0]

I disagree totally that records should have no bearing on trades when you get to this point of the season. An 0-7 team is toast and isn't making the playoffs. Why should they be involved in what happens with the teams fighting for the title? I understand the other side of the arguement but don't agree with it. Just my opinion. ETA: If I was the 0-7 owner I personally wouldn't make any deals and let the others fight it out for the title. If you were talking a week or two ago I could see it, but if he's 0-7 why bother.

[nflocd 0]

Man, what a mess. Looks like a fair trade to me.

 

One way around this in the future is to make sure there is some sort of consolation tourney or some sort of incentive for non-contenders to remove any suspicion of a team giving up and dumping players.

[Vikings4ever 538]

An 0-7 team is toast and isn't making the playoffs. Why should they be involved in what happens with the teams fighting for the title?

So they should just lie down the rest of the year and lose? Or should they try to get better and play spoiler?

[BengalsFan 0]

I don't blame the guy for not wanting an 0-7 team to help you out. If it was a team that had a shot at the playoffs then I'd be OK with it. Scrub teams with no shot at the playoffs should keep their stud players and not help other teams in the hunt. I agree with the veto. Stop your belly-aching 

What type of record would you say still has a shot to make the playoffs?

I agree there is a grey area there but 0-7 sure doesn't qualify.

You are right that 0-7 almost has no chance of making the plyoffs unless they win out which is not likely. But waht about 2-5? I think a 2-5 team has a chance to make the playoffs.

[ROCKET 0]

An 0-7 team is toast and isn't making the playoffs. Why should they be involved in what happens with the teams fighting for the title?

So they should just lie down the rest of the year and lose? Or should they try to get better and play spoiler?

How is he making his team better by giving up Barber?

[Demon 0]

wtf?!? The 0-7 team had HORRIBLE qb's and wr's, and he gets a legit qb in Collins and a legit #1 wr in J Smith and all he really had to give up was Tiki and waiver wire fodder?! That is a sound trade that benefits both teams. I'm sorry, but all I can say is if that gets vetoed, dont join that league next year. Hell, if you dont have any money in that league I would consider just quiting.

[swamp dog 0]

there are an awful lot of these threads. really, what would our opinion matter? you're playing in a private league where you implicitly gave your approval to the league rules the day you signed up and participated in the draft.

[BengalsFan 0]

Also, I think that it is crap that they vetoed that trade. It looked even to me, and with the Commish saying if a trade makes a good team better, then it should be vetoed, means find a new league next year.

[Vikings4ever 538]

An 0-7 team is toast and isn't making the playoffs. Why should they be involved in what happens with the teams fighting for the title?

So they should just lie down the rest of the year and lose? Or should they try to get better and play spoiler?

How is he making his team better by giving up Barber?

I guess he thinks DD can turn it on. If he can, he's got 3 good RBs, and only able to start 2. That 3rd RB is doing him no good on the bench, and he needs upgrades at WR and QB. In this trade, he gets them.

[citikid 0]

I would never ever ever be in a league with a veto system for the simple reason that I would not want to be in a league where all owners don't have enough respect and dignity to try their best all season.

[ROCKET 0]

wtf?!? The 0-7 team had HORRIBLE qb's and wr's, and he gets a legit qb in Collins and a legit #1 wr in J Smith and all he really had to give up was Tiki and waiver wire fodder?! That is a sound trade that benefits both teams. I'm sorry, but all I can say is if that gets vetoed, dont join that league next year. Hell, if dont have any money in that league I would consider just quiting.

Tiki should bring a stud WR in any deal, Jimmy Smith isn't that.

[Guest MUGS]

Looking at his lineup

He gets an upgrade at Qb (Collins over McNair)

Also at Wr(J Smith over his pile)

 

You get Tiki

 

He has 3 decent rb's and can spare one

 

I see nothing wrong with it, so be it he has a bad record, I sure as sh!t would want to upgrade my team and be competetive and not lay down.

He's not trading his team or dumping

 

Let the trade go thru

[MadLove 0]

I appreciate the activity in this thread - truly. I'm not a FF expert, but I like to think that common sense should prevail over emotions, esp in a competitive $$$ league trade. This is blatant ill-wishing in my opinion.

[ROCKET 0]

CJ for Tiki should have been the deal the other owner should have went after. He's not even upgrading at QB, at WR he isn't improved much either with Smith. He's gotten his team to 0-7 so it's no surprise he's continuing to make stupid moves.

[Demon 0]

wtf?!?  The 0-7 team had HORRIBLE qb's and wr's, and he gets a legit qb in Collins and a legit #1 wr in J Smith and all he really had to give up was Tiki and waiver wire fodder?!  That is a sound trade that benefits both teams.  I'm sorry, but all I can say is if that gets vetoed, dont join that league next year.  Hell, if dont have any money in that league I would consider just quiting.

Tiki should bring a stud WR in any deal, Jimmy Smith isn't that.

He is at least a top 10 WR this year, and has an awesome schedule near the end of the year. Yes, there are some better receivers out there (8 or 9) but you have to look at the upgrade to this guys team. J Smith is a HUGE jump from the crap he has at WR and Collins is the same.

[ROCKET 0]

wtf?!?  The 0-7 team had HORRIBLE qb's and wr's, and he gets a legit qb in Collins and a legit #1 wr in J Smith and all he really had to give up was Tiki and waiver wire fodder?!  That is a sound trade that benefits both teams.  I'm sorry, but all I can say is if that gets vetoed, dont join that league next year.  Hell, if dont have any money in that league I would consider just quiting.

Tiki should bring a stud WR in any deal, Jimmy Smith isn't that.

He is at least a top 10 WR this year, and has an awesome schedule near the end of the year. Yes, there are some better receivers out there (8 or 9) but you have to look at the upgrade to this guys team. J Smith is a HUGE jump from the crap he has at WR and Collins is the same.

Jimmy Smith will not be a top 10 wr by years end and Collins won't be much of an upgrade over Tenn's qb's either. The Raiders are a mess just like Tenn and Jax's passing game is nothing to write home about either.

[Demon 0]

CJ for Tiki should have been the deal the other owner should have went after. He's not even upgrading at QB, at WR he isn't improved much either with Smith. He's gotten his team to 0-7 so it's no surprise he's continuing to make stupid moves.

Collins isnt an improvement over Volek/McNair?????????????? he has outscored both of them combined and he is at least healthy. Volek=concussion McNair=well, McNair

[waterwolves 0]

I am sorry but I think this trade is fair. There is almost never a completely even trade so I think saying it has to be even is horsesh!t. I have had three trades in my league I was involved in and they all came close to being vetoed for stupid reasons.

 

I gave up S. Davis and T. Bell for Westbrook which now is starting to look like a bad trade for me but it came one vote away from being vetoed.

 

I also traded Dunn and Chambers for Gates and that almost got vetoed. They were saying my team was going to be to strong. WTF isn't that the point make your team better!!

 

My last trade was offered to me and I jumped on it I gave up Brunell and A. Bryant for P. Manning. It hasn't made it threw yet but people are freaking out on this one. I thought I was taking a chance! Lets face it it is not 2004 for Manning and he is not throwing 49 TD passes this year.

 

I am the commiss of this league and there is a voting period that I am thinking about taking out. If I was 0-7 and I didn't make any moves shame on me.

[Guest MUGS]

Volek has a concussion and McNair has back problems leaving him were?

Collins is in top 10 qb my league

Smith> anything he has going

 

I asked Again...Is it collusion or team dumping?

What else do people disallow trades on? I can answer that..being jealous and not being able to put that deal together and try and hurt the top leading scorer

 

 

 

ROCKET Posted on Oct 29 2005, 12:45 AM

CJ for Tiki should have been the deal the other owner should have went after. He's not even upgrading at QB, at WR he isn't improved much either with Smith. He's gotten his team to 0-7 so it's no surprise he's continuing to make stupid moves

[Fantasy Newbie 0]

Long time reader, new poster... I frequent another FF board that will remain nameless.

 

To the people wanting to veto this trade... there is no reason too. Each team benefitted from the players given up by each team. That is what trades are for. If "personal preferences" are going to be a barometer in trading then good luck in any trades anybody attempts. This trade should go through with no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Some teams might be bitter about it but they probably did not make an offer. Screw them... they should have made an offer.

 

To give you background of my formal opinions about trading I personally do not like trading during the season. I think "no trade" leagues would solve many of these problems and bring the draft back into a more promising light. Given this information, I hate the trade because I hate trading in general... but this trade has much more merit then some proposals I have seen.

 

I would email the league and commish and tell all of them to have fun with their league because I would not want to be a part of it. Might sound bad to leave the league and drop all your players mid season, but as an owner I paid my money and if I am willing to trade then I should be given that right. Take that right away from me because of "personal preference" is simply wrong.

[MadLove 0]

Collins isn't an upgrade over TEN? Did you not see LaMont blow up last week? Do you remember a guy named Randy Moss? I hear he was the #1 consensus WR across all boards this pre-season (just like LT was for RBs)... rocket, I can understand your general rationale.. but come on.

[ROCKET 0]

CJ for Tiki should have been the deal the other owner should have went after. He's not even upgrading at QB, at WR he isn't improved much either with Smith. He's gotten his team to 0-7 so it's no surprise he's continuing to make stupid moves.

Collins isnt an improvement over Volek/McNair?????????????? he has outscored both of them combined and he is at least healthy. Volek=concussion McNair=well, McNair

Collins isn't doing sheit either. Tiki should bring a wr like Holt/Horn (when healthy) AND a qb like Delhomme/Brees from an owner looking for a solid RB. HTH

[nflocd 0]

Jimmy Smith will not be a top 10 wr by years end and Collins won't be much of an upgrade over Tenn's qb's either. The Raiders are a mess just like Tenn and Jax's passing game is nothing to write home about either.

[Lumbergh]yeah, i'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there[/Lumbergh]

Tenn receivers are a mess: Bennett is hurt and has struggled as a #1; Calico was demoted, and now Brandon Jones is hurt. Oak has a much better stable of WRs and any team that has Moss is good for a QB. And Jimmy Smith *will* be a top-10 WR by the end of the year

[ROCKET 0]

Collins isn't an upgrade over TEN? Did you not see LaMont blow up last week? Do you remember a guy named Randy Moss? I hear he was the #1 consensus WR across all boards this pre-season (just like LT was for RBs)... rocket, I can understand your general rationale.. but come on.

I don't see Collins being an upgrade over a guy like Brees or Delhomme who he should be able to get along with a solid #1 wr alot better than Smith for Tiki. Cmon, Collins, Pass and Jimmy Smith?

[Guest MUGS]

Collins isn't doing sheit either. Tiki should bring a wr like Holt/Horn (when healthy)

 

Collins is #12 in my league..not bad, if Moss healthy,even better

 

Holt or Horn, not with their injuries now

 

To each their own on their value of a player or players

(withinreason,E.T.- not LT2 for a scrub)

[joefry 0]

If I were you, I would quit ASAP. Since it the first year, you need not invest anymore time in this bs. There should be a rule that teams who are mathematically eliminated should not be able to trade. 0-7 is unlikly to be in the playoffs, but not mathematically eliminated. Most leagues are at least 13 games, so 6 - 7 could get you in with tie breakers. 7 - 7 or 6 - 8 would also be viable in some formats. Basically this ass just decided that the other guy is out of it. That is crap and I would find a different league to join.

[Fantasy Newbie 0]

Collins = 13th QB

McNair = 16th QB

Volek = 40th QB

 

Tiki = 10th RB

Pass = 37th RB

 

Smith = 15th WR

 

Mason is his best other WR and he is the 30th WR

 

Barber is nothing to him because he has the ability to play two other studs at RB. He upgrades his WR's and QB's more then he downgrades his RB's.

 

Brunell is injury prone... Tiki could go down next week... then what would the league say? They then helped the better team by vetoing this. NO SENSE TO VETO THIS THING.

[waterwolves 0]

When a team sucks they just have suck it up and take some chances. IMO Whats up rocket are you one of those teams that has like a 2-5 record and you are trying to trade Chad Johnson for LT!!!! I think it is a legit trade. I think some people when their teams really suck try and hold on to their best players when they should be trying to turn their 1 super stud into 2 Very good players. For instance I tried to trade one of the worst teams in the league I was going to give him S. Smith and T. Bell for Owens. He laughed and said I was robbing him. his starting running backs at the time were Faulk and F Taylor who was hurt at the time. What an idiot!!

[Guest MUGS]

Fantasy Newbie 

Posted: Oct 29 2005, 01:06 AM

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Collins = 13th QB

McNair = 16th QB

Volek = 40th QB

 

McNair and Volek bot have injuries also..ahem, lowering their status more

 

I had this BS happen to me 3 yrs ago trading for T.O.,giving a Good Qb, Rb and Mason with his injury depleted team and I was shot down.

 

Thank God it was, since TO sucked and Mason panned out, you never know

[Fantasy Newbie 0]

Fantasy Newbie  

Posted: Oct 29 2005, 01:06 AM

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Joined: 29-October 05

 

 

 

 

Collins = 13th QB

McNair = 16th QB

Volek = 40th QB

 

McNair and Volek bot have injuries also..ahem, lowering their status more

 

I had this BS happen to me 3 yrs ago trading for T.O.,giving a Good Qb, Rb and Mason with his injury depleted team and I was shot down.

 

Thank God it was, since TO sucked and Mason panned out, you never know

Nice quote... taken out of context... did you even bother to read the rest of my post?

 

If your response was in agreement with me then disregard this as a rude comment. But since you quoted when I came on board here I took it as serious rather then tounge-in-cheek.

 

I wouldnt be here if another board was not updating their servers but this post caught my attention.

[wild_and_crazy_guy 5]

All of you pro-veto league people...this would be a great opportunity to jump in and say why veto leagues are not lame!!

[mntom 0]

By Rocket's comments, I think he must be the commish for this league and just giving bogus reponses.

[Fantasy Newbie 0]

**************************UPDATE: Just got this from the commish:

 

 

To ALL

I want to end this. This trade amounts to Tiki Barber a 1st

string prime RB with 85 points traded for Jimmy smith a WR

with 62 points all other parts of the trade basically being

a wash. The 17th draft pick for the what  50th and MadLove

can't understand why some see it as one sided. Be that as it

may I would like to make the observation that nobody in this

league bothered to read the rules in the begining of the

season. I dont think anyone thought about much of this

including trade vetoes and how many people should be

appropriate. Therefore I suggest that everyone tell us right

now  asap if the rule should be changed to 6 vetoes required

to kill a trade. That is more than half of the 10 people

voting. If everyone agrees we should also revote and if we

can get this done by Sunday morning I will get the  traded

players in their lineups. So please ask everyone to

immediately post a message with their approval or not of 6

vetoes required and if that passes a revote. LASTLY IF I DO

NOT HAVE THE ENTRY FEES  BY TUESDAY I SUGGEST THEY ARE

INELIGIBLE TO WIN ANYTHING ANYWAY. I hope that Aaron & Eric

appreciate my attempt to reevaluate the rules for them over

this.

 

I have a bad feeling that at least one or two of the vetoes were "influenced"... does changing the rule to requiring 6 vetoes (from 4) change anything here? Again, the commish is tight with everyone else in this league... I am the outsider/newcomer. By the way, these vetoers have been anonymous... is THAT right?

If I were you I would want to hear other opinions why they "vetoed" this trade. You deserve to hear why people are not allowing you to trade.

 

The Commish is making no sense in saying "the 17th player taken vs. the 50th... blah blah blah." Throw some other names up there like the 9th player taken is being outperformed by the 100th player taken. In this instance players like Ahman Green are being outdone by Mike Anderson... dont know when your league drafted but if it was early Anderson may not even have been picked. What about Willie Parker? I bet he is outperforming many early picks. The commies position on this "veto" holds no water.