I'm teaching a class at church......

[Strike 4,389]

I pooped and it looked like the virgin mary. I'm gonna sell it on E-bay

[Bigtraine 27]

Although, frankly, the mormons are pretty kooky. But nice.

 

"Caffeine is bad!"

 

"What?......we bought Pepsi? Hmmm...."

 

"Caffeine is fine!"

 

Disclaimer: I've heard the above is true, but I've never actually verified if that is the case or not. If they did actually change their religious stance on caffeine because of commercial interest, it wouldn't be the first time a religion has done so.

[squidfinger 0]

"Caffeine is bad!"

 

"What?......we bought Pepsi? Hmmm...."

 

"Caffeine is fine!"

 

Disclaimer: I've heard the above is true, but I've never actually verified if that is the case or not. If they did actually change their religious stance on caffeine because of commercial interest, it wouldn't be the first time a religion has done so.

 

The underwear that they wear at all times (including during sex), the belief that women need to have kids to enter heaven, heaven being a planet that you rule with a spouse, and anal sex not being a sin are all notable as well...obviously I'm not 100% on all of these, but it's not rank conjecture either...

[TyCobb 0]

Here's a good question to address:

 

Why does the Christian church depict Jesus as if he were Gregg Allman, instead of a curly haired Middle Easterner?

 

In what way do they "depict" Jesus? You mean when someone makes a movie? I'm not sure that's the church as much as a film company trying to make money.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong. Jesus was a Jew, so he clearly wasn't blond haired and blue eyed. But I'm wondering what you mean by the question.

[TAS 2]

I am agnostic.(puff puff) I think the bible(puff puff) are made up fairy tales used to try to(puff puff) control people.

Fixed!

[TyCobb 0]

I think my feelings about the Catholic church turned very sour about the time our priest asked us this:

"Are you trying to raise them gay?"

 

That was his comment when we dediced to have two godmothers at our boy's baptism, and no godfathers. Of course, I was already starting to lose patience long before that. Like the time our long time family priest refused to allow my sister to be married in his church because she lived with her fiance. Good times.

 

This probably explains most of our disagreements in the past, Hoff. I'm not Catholic. I'm an Evangelical Christian who actually believes in the inerrency of the Bible, the Diety of Christ, the veracity of miracles, etc.

 

So when you paint a negative view of "the Church" from now on, please understand that I probably agree with your view of Catholicism virtually all of the time. I'm coming from an entirely different religious worldview.

 

Thanks for sharing, though. Sounds like your experience sucked.

[Fervid Ro 0]

Count me as a liberal Christian

[Toro 1]

Count me as a liberal Christian

 

 

You better delete this quick before your boyfriend sees it!!!!!

[torridjoe 48]

In what way do they "depict" Jesus? You mean when someone makes a movie? I'm not sure that's the church as much as a film company trying to make money.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong. Jesus was a Jew, so he clearly wasn't blond haired and blue eyed. But I'm wondering what you mean by the question.

 

I mean when they commissioned artists to paint him.

[Ilov80s 0]

If God raised man above all the animals by giving us the ability to reason, then why would he force us to defy logic to find faith in him.

[torridjoe 48]

 

You better delete this quick before your boyfriend sees it!!!!!

 

I'm a liberal Christian too, essentially. I strongly believe in Christ's message. I just don't treat the Jesus story literally.

[TyCobb 0]

I mean when they commissioned artists to paint him.

 

Ah. The Roman Catholic Church from centuries ago. I gotcha.

 

Yeah, that bugs me too.

[Fervid Ro 0]

I'm a liberal Christian too, essentially. I strongly believe in Christ's message. I just don't treat the Jesus story literally.

[swamp dog 0]

just the title of the thread alone made me stop in and give my sympathies.

 

is this court-ordered by any chance?

[p.man 7]

My grandmother was the finest person I have ever known and a devout Catholic. She came about as close to personifying the spirit of true Christianity as anyone I can imagine. In the latter years of her life she lost her mind, not knowing who anyone was or where she was living or what decade it was. Why would God do that to someone who had served him and obeyed his son's teachings so faithfully?

 

Because Adam and Eve ate that damn apple.

 

Sorry to hear about your grandma.

[DanXIII 8]

Fumbleweed, serious answer here:

 

I grew up a Southern Baptist. I attended a Christian school from kindergarten until the 5th grade. I was essentially forced to attend church every Sunday until high school. Although I stopped going to church around the time my parents divorced, I don't think I truly lost my faith until well into my twenties.

 

The main reason for this is, ironically, a comparative religion class that I took in college. Before you ask, NO it was not a liberal professor! She was staunchly conservative (as was the rest of my college). We were assigned a paper on the teachings of a religious figure and I, like most of my class, chose Jesus as I'd had the most exposure to Him.

 

In the course of my research I discovered things that shook my already shakey faith to its core. The one thing that probably stood out most was the fact that much of the New Testament, including many of the teachings of Jesus, were NEVER said or taught by Jesus. We know this to a degree of absolute certainty, as we have access to many original copies of the ancient texts that did not contain much of what today's Bible does. I'd been taught all my life that these things were absolute "certainties" only to discover as an adult that it simply was not so. To be honest, I felt lied to more than anything, but it had the effect of validating all the things about the Bible that I had been questioning since my teen years. This experience essentially opened my eyes in a way that nothing could previously. I began looking critically at the Bible, not just at what I was told it said all my life, but the actual meaning of the words. While the message is at times an inspirational one, the truth is that much of it is based on events that never happened. I just don't think I could go back after seeing the facts.

[TyCobb 0]

The one thing that probably stood out most was the fact that much of the New Testament, including many of the teachings of Jesus, were NEVER said or taught by Jesus. We know this to a degree of absolute certainty, as we have access to many original copies of the ancient texts that did not contain much of what today's Bible does.

 

FYI - We have no original manuscripts of the New Testament. What you studied were copies of copies.

[DanXIII 8]

FYI - We have no original manuscripts of the New Testament. What you studied were copies of copies.

 

And then I studied copies of those copies, and then still more copies of more copies. Before the printing press all that existed were "copies of copies." I don't think I ever claimed we had "original copies" of the New Testament, so I fail to see your point.

 

FYI, there were not only things added to the Bible over the centuries. Much was also removed as well, some accidentally, some intentionally.

[JT 137]

.....and it's intended to be an open, honest dialogue about faith and belief. For the first couple of weeks, we're going to discuss "common sources of unbelief" amongst people that are not Christians.

 

I am interested in getting some basic feedback from people who either don't believe in God/Christ, or feel that Christ is not who He claimed to be, or people that just don't think belief requires much of a response on our part. I promise not to use the thread to argue or debate the issues.....just thought it would be interesting to get some feedback. I am using the Search feature also to look at past stuff on the subject from here on the Board.

 

TIA

 

Sounds interesting to me, Fweed. I'm a PC,OK boy. Which church and when?

Feel free to email if you'd like.

[TyCobb 0]

I don't think I ever claimed we had "original copies" of the New Testament, so I fail to see your point.

 

The one thing that probably stood out most was the fact that much of the New Testament, including many of the teachings of Jesus, were NEVER said or taught by Jesus. We know this to a degree of absolute certainty, as we have access to many original copies of the ancient texts that did not contain much of what today's Bible does.

 

 

BTW - What exactly is an "original copy"? It would seem to me we either have originals or we have copies.

[DanXIII 8]

 

Doh! I guess you're right! Got me!

 

The oldest New Testament texts, if memory serves, date to around 100 AD, while the Dead Sea Scrolls are actually a bit older at 250-100 BC.

 

BTW - What exactly is an "original copy"? It would seem to me we either have originals or we have copies.

 

You are right, of course, and my grammar skills are lacking tonight. An "original copy" would have to be a "copy" of an "original" text. Therein lies the problem with the Bible, as various "copies" tended to alter the texts from which they were transcribed.

 

Edit: I suppose that the earliest surviving New Testament writings were likely copies of the original texts.

[ZeroTolerance 583]

God bless the Evangelicals..fighting the good fight, to ensure every person in the world behaves like they say.

[TyCobb 0]

Doh! I guess you're right! Got me!

 

The oldest New Testament texts, if memory serves, date to around 100 AD, while the Dead Sea Scrolls are actually a bit older at 250-100 BC.

You are right, of course, and my grammar skills are lacking tonight. An "original copy" would have to be a "copy" of an "original" text. Therein lies the problem with the Bible, as various "copies" tended to alter the texts from which they were transcribed.

 

NP.

 

You're right about the dates. And the interesting thing about the Dead Sea Scrolls is that they predate other existing manuscripts by nearly 1000 years ... and they reveal virtually zero changes over those years! They are arguably the most significant manuscript discovery in history.

 

My guess is you got hold of some resources written by those antagonistic to the idea of God inspiring the Bible. I could recommend some serious scholars who support the text, if you're interested.

 

Either way, keep searching, bro. Nobody's "arrived" yet in their journey.

 

God bless the Evangelicals..fighting the good fight, to ensure every person in the world behaves like they say.

 

Ironic comment given your monikor.

[hoffdaddy 1]

NP.

 

You're right about the dates. And the interesting thing about the Dead Sea Scrolls is that they predate other existing manuscripts by nearly 1000 years ... and they reveal virtually zero changes over those years! They are arguably the most significant manuscript discovery in history.

 

My guess is you got hold of some resources written by those antagonistic to the idea of God inspiring the Bible. I could recommend some serious scholars who support the text, if you're interested.

 

Either way, keep searching, bro. Nobody's "arrived" yet in their journey.

Ironic comment given your monikor.

 

I gotta tell you. Despite my feelings on the church, I am actually fascinated by the man Jesus. As a person, I really am intrigued by him. It's been a while, but I did read a few books about his life. I truly believe he was something to see, and had an impact on many people. I'm just not sure how to take a lot of the stuff we read in the Bible.

[Rye & Leaf 0]

One could look at Pascal's "Wager" for why you should believe there is a God. If you go through life denouncing the existence of God, and you are proven to be correct, what do you gain? You simply cease to exist and can never revel in the fact you have been proven true. Or you can simply believe and if you are correct, the kingdom of heaven will be yours to share with the righteous believers who knew God existed. Even if you did believe and in the end God was proven to be a myth, you have lost nothing in the wager.

[Fumbleweed 478]

just the title of the thread alone made me stop in and give my sympathies.

 

is this court-ordered by any chance?

 

Court ordered?

 

No, it's just a class I wanted to teach. Just trying to keep it real.........

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

People should question why people do bad things in the name of "God" or why God's servants do bad things.

 

I don't think that religion in its purest forms (at least the major ones) is that different and it essentially teaches people to be good to others and do the right thing. It is when we have people making odd interpretations of those religious teachings that we get in trouble.

 

If you want to get theological and really teach something, it would be to ask how we prevent those odd interpretations from occurring and how we stay true to values and meanings of these religions.

[DanXIII 8]

My guess is you got hold of some resources written by those antagonistic to the idea of God inspiring the Bible. I could recommend some serious scholars who support the text, if you're interested.

 

Actually one of my main sources was actually a former preacher and professor of religious studies at UNC. I didn't really find their tone antagonistic, but I honestly wasn't looking for that sentiment in the first place. I would definately be interested in seeing anything you've got on the subject, as I really enjoy reading about it.

[ZeroTolerance 583]

Ironic comment given your monikor.

 

What can I say, I have zero tolerance for ignorance. Not 'I never recieved an education so I can't do algebra' ignorance...more like 'my way of thinking is the only way', 'stupid towelheads/ni****rs/chinks should be shot' type ignorance. The kind you see from any form of extremist, from obsessive evangelicals who insist the world must obey their moral guidelines, people who think 'well you dont believe in my god, so you are wicked and will burn in hell'.

 

ETA: I would call it ironic that your handle is that of a baseball player who solved his problems with racism and violence, but he probably was a Christian.

[TyCobb 0]

One could look at Pascal's "Wager" for why you should believe there is a God. If you go through life denouncing the existence of God, and you are proven to be correct, what do you gain? You simply cease to exist and can never revel in the fact you have been proven true. Or you can simply believe and if you are correct, the kingdom of heaven will be yours to share with the righteous believers who knew God existed. Even if you did believe and in the end God was proven to be a myth, you have lost nothing in the wager.

 

That's not exactly true, although I agree with your basic premise that it's better to believe than not. But after years of thinking about this one, the last part of it seems incorrect.

 

The essence of a relationship with Jesus Christ is one of exchange - his life for mine, mine for his. I gain his righteousness, he gets my sin. But he also gets my reckless abandonment thereafter ... i.e. I live for him.

 

So if I believe and God has proven to be a myth, I have lost my time here on earth for nothing.

 

But like I said, I agree with the premise ... to believe is better than not.

 

What can I say, I have zero tolerance for ignorance. Not 'I never recieved an education so I can't do algebra' ignorance...more like 'my way of thinking is the only way', 'stupid towelheads/ni****rs/chinks should be shot' type ignorance. The kind you see from any form of extremist, from obsessive evangelicals who insist the world must obey their moral guidelines, people who think 'well you dont believe in my god, so you are wicked and will burn in hell'.

 

ETA: I would call it ironic that your handle is that of a baseball player who solved his problems with racism and violence, but he probably was a Christian.

 

I have no idea whether Ty Cobb was a Roman Catholic, if that's what you mean. As to whether he had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as Savior, I doubt it. I should probably change my monikor to Jackie Robinson or something. At least he is to be admired. I just think TyCobb was the greatest and most compelling baseball player in history.

 

As for the "burn in hell" extremism of which you speak, think about this for a moment : If Jesus was right and there is a hell, wouldn't it be the most loving thing possible to warn others about it? I'm not condoning the condescension or anger or judgmental attitude you describe, I'm just talking about normal Christians who believe the Bible and talk about their faith in a matter of fact, normal, conversational manner.

 

I would definately be interested in seeing anything you've got on the subject, as I really enjoy reading about it.

Here's a good article for starters. How Accurate Is The Bible? It comes from a website full of resources on all things Bible. You can search all sorts of topics.

 

I'll post some book suggestions if you want more in depth reading.

[Fumbleweed 478]

God bless the Evangelicals..fighting the good fight, to ensure every person in the world behaves like they say.

 

Not sure if your'e talking to me or not, but my class is simply for those who want to come. We have Bible Study on Wednesday nights.....it's just my turn to teach/lead discussion. Nothing more. I'm not asking anyone to do anything........

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Not sure if your'e talking to me or not, but my class is simply for those who want to come. We have Bible Study on Wednesday nights.....it's just my turn to teach/lead discussion. Nothing more. I'm not asking anyone to do anything........

 

I have to give Fumble some credit here. From what I have seen, he has not pushed his religion on others. While making his feelings and beliefs known, he has shown discretion and an acceptance of others.

 

I would say that this thread is an example of such.

[Rye & Leaf 0]

That's not exactly true, although I agree with your basic premise that it's better to believe than not. But after years of thinking about this one, the last part of it seems incorrect.

 

The essence of a relationship with Jesus Christ is one of exchange - his life for mine, mine for his. I gain his righteousness, he gets my sin. But he also gets my reckless abandonment thereafter ... i.e. I live for him.

 

I wish I could take credit for the thought i posted. It is from Pascal. What part of his thought was incorrect?

[TyCobb 0]

I wish I could take credit for the thought i posted. It is from Pascal. What part of his thought was incorrect?

 

Like I said, it's the "you've lost nothing" part. If you give your life for a God who doesn't exist, you've still given your life. You could have lived differently.

[squidfinger 0]

I wish I could take credit for the thought i posted. It is from Pascal. What part of his thought was incorrect?

 

Well, for one thing, Pascal seems to think that a life lived as an athiest and a Christian life are essentially the same...but in actuality, if you chose christianity as generally interpreted, you're not supposed to fornicate. Which means I'd miss out on a lot of fornicatin'...

 

 

 

[Rye & Leaf 0]

Like I said, it's the "you've lost nothing" part. If you give your life for a God who doesn't exist, you've still given your life. You could have lived differently.

 

But another part of his argument is that through seeking God, you find what is good, and with the good one finds happiness. Christianity tied in with Greek thought. In summation, in Pascal's Wager you do not lose if you bet on God.

[ZeroTolerance 583]

As for the "burn in hell" extremism of which you speak, think about this for a moment : If Jesus was right and there is a hell, wouldn't it be the most loving thing possible to warn others about it? I'm not condoning the condescension or anger or judgmental attitude you describe, I'm just talking about normal Christians who believe the Bible and talk about their faith in a matter of fact, normal, conversational manner.

Here's a good article for starters. How Accurate Is The Bible? It comes from a website full of resources on all things Bible. You can search all sorts of topics.

 

Frankly, the arrogance of believing "I have the right religion, all you heathens believe in the wrong God" is irritating as hell. By this logic, every Muslim should be telling every other religion that they are fools and damned, and every Buddhist, etc, etc. By this logic, the act of the Mormon church collecting log books of Holocaust victims to baptize them under the Mormon church 'as an option in the afterlife' is to be lauded. And I don't believe either of the previous points to be legitimate ones, same as I look down on the "I'm saving you from your own wickedness" aspect of evangelism.

[brinett9 0]

Be sure to mention that if they don't believe, God will smash them into a coarse paste and then urinate on them.

[Cdub100 3,606]

If God raised man above all the animals by giving us the ability to reason, then why would he force us to defy logic to find faith in him.

 

Good one

[nobody 2,255]

I'm a liberal Christian too, essentially. I strongly believe in Christ's message. I just don't treat the Jesus story literally.

 

 

wow, you are some kind of whipped.