Who here still supports the violence in Chicago?

[cyclone24 1,909]

The rich and vibrant culture strikes again 

[RLLD 3,793]

4 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

Ive brought it up a few times.  No real responses.  Im just trying to understand the logic that flip flops.  Probably because the Libs who shout poverty leads to crime have no real idea how to spin it.  

Notably, our fellow citizens who have emigrated here from Africa do not seem to share the same issues as those who have been here 

Both groups share similar economic circumstances, but dissimilar cultures...... Hispanic immigrants also share the same economic factors....but progress past them.

When you culture celebrates behaviors that suppress progress......you might not progress....

[Hardcore troubadour 13,676]

Revised numbers, 10 dead, 42 shot. 

[iam90sbaby 2,265]

1 hour ago, cyclone24 said:

The rich and vibrant culture strikes again 

Keeping the stereotypes alive 

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

2 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

Ive brought it up a few times.  No real responses.  Im just trying to understand the logic that flip flops.  Probably because the Libs who shout poverty leads to crime have no real idea how to spin it.  

Except that I HAVE responded to you before. Undocumented immigrants a very different group of people. They chose to leave the country they were living in, leave love ones and family and everything they knew, and risk EVERYTHING- imprisonment, starvation, even death- to come here and seek a better life. That’s an incredible force of will. I don’t think I could do it, could you? 

So there you have most of your answer. These are extraordinary people. In any other grouping they would represent a small minority. Among undocumented immigrants they represent the majority and that’s one reason they don’t let poverty affect them. Another reason is that the economic opportunity for them is far greater than it was where they came from- exactly the opposite of what African-Americans face in communities like Chicago. 
 

And look- you don’t have to believe me. You can reject all of my arguments if you like. But you can’t reject the statistics. Undocumented immigrants do not commit violent crimes at rates equal to native born citizens: 

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find

I know this is opposite of what you believe, of what Trump is telling you, but the facts are the facts. If you don’t like my reasons for it, find your own. 

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

2 hours ago, RLLD said:

Notably, our fellow citizens who have emigrated here from Africa do not seem to share the same issues as those who have been here 

Both groups share similar economic circumstances, but dissimilar cultures...... Hispanic immigrants also share the same economic factors....but progress past them.

When you culture celebrates behaviors that suppress progress......you might not progress....

Perhaps part of it is how they come here? American blacks are the only people in our history who didn’t come here by choice. They were forcibly brought in chains. Even now that has to be a big factor. 

[RLLD 3,793]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Perhaps part of it is how they come here? American blacks are the only people in our history who didn’t come here by choice. They were forcibly brought in chains. Even now that has to be a big factor. 

I think you have touched on something.   But I think there is more to it.  Initially the Democrats really hampered their progress, and then later when they started to make some headway the Democrats hammered them with Jim Crow....and then later when they really started to progress the Democrats just hammered them with the Civil Rights Act and War on Drugs....and then later again with their criminal justice policy....

So there has been a sustained war on the African american segment of society by Democrats, and the ability of that political movement to do them harm continues even to this very day.

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

1 minute ago, RLLD said:

I think you have touched on something.   But I think there is more to it.  Initially the Democrats really hampered their progress, and then later when they started to make some headway the Democrats hammered them with Jim Crow....and then later when they really started to progress the Democrats just hammered them with the Civil Rights Act and War on Drugs....and then later again with their criminal justice policy....

So there has been a sustained war on the African american segment of society by Democrats, and the ability of that political movement to do them harm continues even to this very day.

OK- putting aside your comment on “Democrats” (I don’t equate the modern Democratic Party with southern racists but nice try) I agree that Jim Crow contributed to this problem. I SOMEWHAT agree that the War on Drugs contributed to this problem (though that’s a more complicated subject). But the Civil Rights Act? You better explain that one because it makes no sense to me. 

[RLLD 3,793]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

OK- putting aside your comment on “Democrats” (I don’t equate the modern Democratic Party with southern racists but nice try) I agree that Jim Crow contributed to this problem. I SOMEWHAT agree that the War on Drugs contributed to this problem (though that’s a more complicated subject). But the Civil Rights Act? You better explain that one because it makes no sense to me. 

The Civil Rights act inspired the replacement of the black father with the state, and was profoundly destructive to the the most positive force in the AA community....two-parent homes....few actions of the Democrats were as powerful as this one in harming that community, later they used the criminal justice system to ensure black fathers were further removed.....

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

2 minutes ago, RLLD said:

The Civil Rights act inspired the replacement of the black father with the state, and was profoundly destructive to the the most positive force in the AA community....two-parent homes....few actions of the Democrats were as powerful as this one in harming that community, later they used the criminal justice system to ensure black fathers were further removed.....

Nonsense. 

[Hardcore troubadour 13,676]

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a NY liberal if there ever was one, released The Moynihan Report in 1965 speaking of the disintegration of the black family due to welfare and the government taking over the responsibilities to provide.  It’s been spot on over the last 50 years. Real Tim never heard of it. 

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

7 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a NY liberal if there ever was one, released The Moynihan Report in 1965 speaking of the disintegration of the black family due to welfare and the government taking over the responsibilities to provide.  It’s been spot on over the last 50 years. Real Tim never heard of it. 

Actually I wrote a paper on it in college. I agree with many of Moynihan’s conclusions but conservatives have twisted his ideas ever since and attempted to use them to attack ALL government led solutions to this issue, which was never his intent. (if you don’t believe me, read Moynihan’s interview with Playboy from 1973 in which he castigated conservatives for deliberately trying to misrepresent him.) 

[RLLD 3,793]

12 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Nonsense. 

And it it transpired.   I like the quote from psychologist and author, Carl Jung: ““If you cannot understand why someone did something, look at the consequences—and infer the motivation."

So time and again....we see Democrats pursuing policy.....and time and again....we see disproportionate harm being derived by the AA community.....at what point might it arise that YOU step back and ask aloud....what the hell is this?

[Mike Hunt 160]

13 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I do. 
 

As a liberal I believe that poverty and lack of education leads to crime and violence. African Americans in Chicago need better economic opportunity, and hope, and better chances at education. They also need better family life (that’s one area in which conservatives are right about): two parent households. 
 

 

OK, but just stop shooting and stabbing each other! 

[cyclone24 1,909]

2 hours ago, iam90sbaby said:

Keeping the stereotypes alive 

Stereotypes are there for a reason. There’s enough to fill it.

[listen2me 23 1,686]

59 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Except that I HAVE responded to you before. Undocumented immigrants a very different group of people. They chose to leave the country they were living in, leave love ones and family and everything they knew, and risk EVERYTHING- imprisonment, starvation, even death- to come here and seek a better life. That’s an incredible force of will. I don’t think I could do it, could you? 

So there you have most of your answer. These are extraordinary people. In any other grouping they would represent a small minority. Among undocumented immigrants they represent the majority and that’s one reason they don’t let poverty affect them. Another reason is that the economic opportunity for them is far greater than it was where they came from- exactly the opposite of what African-Americans face in communities like Chicago. 
 

And look- you don’t have to believe me. You can reject all of my arguments if you like. But you can’t reject the statistics. Undocumented immigrants do not commit violent crimes at rates equal to native born citizens: 

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find

I know this is opposite of what you believe, of what Trump is telling you, but the facts are the facts. If you don’t like my reasons for it, find your own. 

I commend you for giving an answer.  You spin like a top but at least you tried.  

I do believe you.  I was asking why our poor with no generational wealth cannot do similar?  Then get the poverty excuses?  Why does one group not need thr excuses of poverty?

I know you need it to fit neatly into your narrative.  

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

12 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

I commend you for giving an answer.  You spin like a top but at least you tried.  

I do believe you.  I was asking why our poor with no generational wealth cannot do similar?  Then get the poverty excuses?  Why does one group not need thr excuses of poverty?

I know you need it to fit neatly into your narrative.  

I did try to answer you. 
 

But I need to correct one point: poverty is not an excuse for crime. It’s a REASON for crime, and one we need to address as a society, but not an excuse. Anyone who commits a crime needs to be punished for the crime no matter what underlying reasons. There are no excuses for violent crimes. 

[listen2me 23 1,686]

12 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I did try to answer you. 
 

But I need to correct one point: poverty is not an excuse for crime. It’s a REASON for crime, and one we need to address as a society, but not an excuse. Anyone who commits a crime needs to be punished for the crime no matter what underlying reasons. There are no excuses for violent crimes. 

Hey I agree.  

Im just saying its hard to sell "hey poverty leads to crime for some people but does not for others"   Thats not very logical.  Especially when the ones who supposedly do not commit as much crime grew up and lived in "terrible circumstances" they must flee and risk their life to leave.  You guys act like Mexico is Afghanistan.  Our poor turns their noses up at working fot a living.  Where you say central america's poor is hard working and willing to come do cheap jobs and bustt ass. 

Doesn't add up.  

Maybe our poor has a privilege problem.    They are too good to bother trying.  Just wait for daddy government to relax laws and hand out things.  

[Hardcore troubadour 13,676]

Lol. Not long ago liberals like Tim would give no quarter on the poverty/ crime issue. Now that the massive influx of poor people for political purposes has occurred, he’s taking up for them instead of Americans.  Replacement is real.  And so focked up.  

[Voltaire 4,786]

Tell me more.

I could be talked into supporting violence in Chicago, insofar as it's limited to rival groups of gangbangers. I'm warning you though, the minute a stray shot hits a 5 year old, I'm outta here.

[iam90sbaby 2,265]

27 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I did try to answer you. 
 

But I need to correct one point: poverty is not an excuse for crime. It’s a REASON for crime, and one we need to address as a society, but not an excuse. Anyone who commits a crime needs to be punished for the crime no matter what underlying reasons. There are no excuses for violent crimes. 

And the question you need to answer is why some poor areas are a lot worse than others.  I could walk through downtown Charleston WV at 3am and nothing bad would happen, South Side Chicago? Not so much 

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

Just now, iam90sbaby said:

And the question you need to answer is why some poor areas are a lot worse than others.  I could walk through downtown Charleston WV at 3am and nothing bad would happen, South Side Chicago? Not so much 

Based on some of your previous posts I suspect YOUR answer is the racial makeup of the community. And I reject that answer. 

I have already stated that I agree with conservatives that the lack of two parent households for many African-Americans contributes to this issue. So does the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. And with a nod to my friend @RLLD I will concede the possibility that certain well meaning liberal ideas and programs have probably contributed to this issue as well. This is a complicated subject. But I still believe that society has to work to help solve this problem and that government has to play a role. 

[seafoam1 2,380]

8 minutes ago, iam90sbaby said:

And the question you need to answer is why some poor areas are a lot worse than others.  I could walk through downtown Charleston WV at 3am and nothing bad would happen, South Side Chicago? Not so much 

Hmm...I wonder why...

[RLLD 3,793]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Based on some of your previous posts I suspect YOUR answer is the racial makeup of the community. And I reject that answer. 

I have already stated that I agree with conservatives that the lack of two parent households for many African-Americans contributes to this issue. So does the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. And with a nod to my friend @RLLD I will concede the possibility that certain well meaning liberal ideas and programs have probably contributed to this issue as well. This is a complicated subject. But I still believe that society has to work to help solve this problem and that government has to play a role. 

I agree.  I think it will require a total solution.  Starting with the youngest of children, but touching on the AA community in total.  Employment is a key element, building a more solid home environment is another essential piece.  Ultimately, we have to confront a culture that celebrates  criminality and abhors "selling out"......and flip that narrative completely. 

[iam90sbaby 2,265]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Based on some of your previous posts I suspect YOUR answer is the racial makeup of the community. And I reject that answer. 

I have already stated that I agree with conservatives that the lack of two parent households for many African-Americans contributes to this issue. So does the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. And with a nod to my friend @RLLD I will concede the possibility that certain well meaning liberal ideas and programs have probably contributed to this issue as well. This is a complicated subject. But I still believe that society has to work to help solve this problem and that government has to play a role. 

You can reject it doesn't mean it isn't true

[Nomad99 584]

6 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I did try to answer you. 
 

But I need to correct one point: poverty is not an excuse for crime. It’s a REASON for crime

The REASON for crime is a conscious decision made by an individual. Now.....maybe this individual is poor or underprivileged.....but crime is not the only avenue out of poverty. You have choices.....becoming a criminal is one of them. Plenty of people that are poor take other paths. DECIDING TO BECOME A CRIMINAL IS THE REASON FOR CRIME. Not many examples out there either, of people becoming criminals in order to support their families. The overwhelming majority of criminals are so in order to support a drug habit or to make money without having to work for it. Some get into crime because of the lure & influence of others.....but again....it's a choice....being poor ISN'T THE REASON. 

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

3 minutes ago, Nomad99 said:

The REASON for crime is a conscious decision made by an individual. Now.....maybe this individual is poor or underprivileged.....but crime is not the only avenue out of poverty. You have choices.....becoming a criminal is one of them. Plenty of people that are poor take other paths. DECIDING TO BECOME A CRIMINAL IS THE REASON FOR CRIME. Not many examples out there either, of people becoming criminals in order to support their families. The overwhelming majority of criminals are so in order to support a drug habit or to make money with having to work for it. Some get into crime because of the lure & influence of others.....but again....it's a choise....being poor ISN'T THE REASON. 

We’re using different words but generally I agree with you. By coming up with larger reasons and causes that I think should be addressed I am not trying to remove individual responsibility. 

[jonnyutah 200]

4 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Except that I HAVE responded to you before. Undocumented immigrants a very different group of people. They chose to leave the country they were living in, leave love ones and family and everything they knew, and risk EVERYTHING- imprisonment, starvation, even death- to come here and seek a better life. That’s an incredible force of will. I don’t think I could do it, could you? 

So there you have most of your answer. These are extraordinary people. In any other grouping they would represent a small minority. Among undocumented immigrants they represent the majority and that’s one reason they don’t let poverty affect them. Another reason is that the economic opportunity for them is far greater than it was where they came from- exactly the opposite of what African-Americans face in communities like Chicago. 
 

And look- you don’t have to believe me. You can reject all of my arguments if you like. But you can’t reject the statistics. Undocumented immigrants do not commit violent crimes at rates equal to native born citizens: 

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find

I know this is opposite of what you believe, of what Trump is telling you, but the facts are the facts. If you don’t like my reasons for it, find your own. 

Your answer is that undocumented immigrants are better people than black people. 

That is not how I saw this going. 

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

11 minutes ago, jonnyutah said:

Your answer is that undocumented immigrants are better people than black people. 

That is not how I saw this going. 

Lol no such thing. People are individuals. There are many black people who are just as great as undocumented immigrants. But I truly believe that as a whole, undocumented immigrants, and immigrants in general (unlike many people here I don’t differentiate) are truly remarkable people. 

[Maximum Overkill 1,149]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

truly believe that as a whole, undocumented immigrants, and immigrants in general (unlike many people here I don’t differentiate) are truly remarkable people. 

What exactly makes them so remarkable? And do you know even ONE Undocumented Illegal Immigrant? 

[jonnyutah 200]

55 minutes ago, Maximum Overkill said:

What exactly makes them so remarkable? And do you know even ONE Undocumented Illegal Immigrant? 

He only knows juan.

[Maximum Overkill 1,149]

 

 

[seafoam1 2,380]

3 hours ago, Maximum Overkill said:

 

 

Liberal run cities....

[Engorgeous George 1,611]

On 6/11/2024 at 9:28 AM, The Real timschochet said:

Except that I HAVE responded to you before. Undocumented immigrants a very different group of people. They chose to leave the country they were living in, leave love ones and family and everything they knew, and risk EVERYTHING- imprisonment, starvation, even death- to come here and seek a better life. That’s an incredible force of will. I don’t think I could do it, could you? 

So there you have most of your answer. These are extraordinary people. In any other grouping they would represent a small minority. Among undocumented immigrants they represent the majority and that’s one reason they don’t let poverty affect them. Another reason is that the economic opportunity for them is far greater than it was where they came from- exactly the opposite of what African-Americans face in communities like Chicago. 
 

And look- you don’t have to believe me. You can reject all of my arguments if you like. But you can’t reject the statistics. Undocumented immigrants do not commit violent crimes at rates equal to native born citizens: 

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find

I know this is opposite of what you believe, of what Trump is telling you, but the facts are the facts. If you don’t like my reasons for it, find your own. 

Still equating incrceration rates and conviction rates with accts committed?  Seems a faulty metric when illegals can drift back across the border to avoid prosecution.  

[The Real timschochet 4,700]

1 hour ago, Engorgeous George said:

Still equating incrceration rates and conviction rates with accts committed?  Seems a faulty metric when illegals can drift back across the border to avoid prosecution.  

Im terms of comparison between undocumented immigrants and those born here it’s not faulty at all. 
 

In any case it defies common sense to believe that those undocumented immigrants who are violent criminals are anything but a tiny minority of the whole. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,169]

Liberals still support the crime in Chicago.   Nothing has changed.

[Engorgeous George 1,611]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Im terms of comparison between undocumented immigrants and those born here it’s not faulty at all. 
 

In any case it defies common sense to believe that those undocumented immigrants who are violent criminals are anything but a tiny minority of the whole. 

It is a very flawed metric.  Perpetrators do flee across the border and to other towns and given the inability to I.D. them they escape justice.  Victims, ususally from the same migrazt community are reluctant to come forward to prosecute crimes against them as they are afraid authorities will deport them if they contact authorities since they are unawre of the U-visa they can get for cooperation with prosecutors and so a vast swath of crime goes unreported.  You are arguing that X=Y when definitionally they are overlapping but not equivilent sets.

 

As for the second matter it is very likely that the great majority of illegals are nonviolent and intend to obey the laws of this nation, absent the immigration laws.  The violent subset is, however, not insignificant and is very violent.  Unfortunately, too, just like with bad cops, the violent are not violent once, they are violent over and over again.  They do disproportionate damage coloring the perception of the demographic to which they belong unfairly.

 

 

[Hardcore troubadour 13,676]

45 shot, 8 dead.  Happy Fourth of July Chicagoland! Crime is down! 

[RLLD 3,793]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

45 shot, 8 dead.  Happy Fourth of July Chicagoland! Crime is down! 

I presume none of these were police-involved....so those lives....dont matter.....

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,169]

19 minutes ago, RLLD said:

I presume none of these were police-involved....so those lives....dont matter.....

Also, probably not any white shooters so it won't get any coverage.

I don't know if you know this, but there is only white on black crime.  No other crime exists.