Trump talk only- no Eagles talk allowed (Steelers talk is OK though)

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

2 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

What changed?  What additional legal hurdles were put into place?  
 

Also, I was wrong, your Newsweek article didn’t say “stripping constitutional rights”.  It says “stripping constitutional protections”. Its literally  in the 2nd paragraph.  I stand by my assertion, or we  splitting hairs over rights/protections? 

Because they changed aspects of what was allowed and what wasn't allowed. This isn't a trap or a gotcha.

In cases leading up to Roe the justices who wrote the decisions did very much use the word protections. In a Pennyslvania challenge in the late 80;s the word protection was used too by a judge writing the majority opinion. 

[Fireballer 2,608]

11 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Because they changed aspects of what was allowed and what wasn't allowed. This isn't a trap or a gotcha.

In cases leading up to Roe the justices who wrote the decisions did very much use the word protections. In a Pennyslvania challenge in the late 80;s the word protection was used too by a judge writing the majority opinion. 

Cool.  Then you can give me a link to go read about the changes.  Did the definition of abortion change?  None of it matters though, this is still on the docs/ hospital.  20 hour wait is not excusable.  

[OldMaid 2,125]

https://fortune.com/2024/09/18/trump-vs-harris-election-odds-who-will-win/

[OldMaid 2,125]

A D&C is a surgical procedure where they scrape tissue out of the uterus. It is also technically the name for early surgical abortions up to 12-13 weeks. I would assume that a botched medical abortion requiring one would also fall under this umbrella.

[edjr 6,384]

We need a ticket of Trudeau/Newsome to get elected and just focking end the USA's misery

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

7 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Cool.  Then you can give me a link to go read about the changes.  Did the definition of abortion change?  

I'm not sure why you are hammering the abortion thing. I never said it was an abortion. I speculated that the doctor's were perhaps unsure how to proceed considering the surgery would be required from an abortion related event.

In 2019, the Georgia legislature passed a "fetal heartbeat" law known as the LIFE Act. The law had the support of Gov. Brian Kemp, who signed it into effect. The LIFE Act prohibits most abortions once a physician can detect the supposed cardiac activity of the fetus, which lawmakers have estimated at six weeks of pregnancy. So the timeline changed from 22 weeks down to 6 weeks. It should also be noted medical experts usually think it is not until 9-10 weeks before the fetal heart forms. The law provides exceptions for abortion in cases of medical emergencies, medically futile pregnancies, and pregnancies that resulted from rape or incest. It also provides that procedures to remove a deceased fetus or an ectopic pregnancy do not constitute an abortion. Additionally at the time the bill was being discussed many doctors indicated that some of the language was too vague. A D&C is traditionally used as a means of managing a miscarriage or look at uterine bleeding but it is a medically acceptable way to perform an abortion and I think that is where the debate came from in this. Doctors most likely needed to be sure they were in solid legal standing with it all. 

So again- I'm not saying the procedure itself was an abortion. It's clear the lady took medicine for an abortion that she received from a clinic in NC because her pregnancy was at 9 weeks when the 6 week ban was instituted (so she would've been in violation of the law at that point.) She then had a medical reaction that like 32 people have had in all the time the meds have been administered and there was a delay in issuing care for a variety of reasons. It will be interesting to see more come out on the story as to what caused the delay. 

 

Here is some stuff on Georgia abortion laws:

 

https://www.findlaw.com/state/georgia-law/georgia-abortion-laws.html

https://dph.georgia.gov/document/document/updatedwrtkbrochure/download

[The Real timschochet 5,398]

15 minutes ago, edjr said:

We need a ticket of Trudeau/Newsome to get elected and just focking end the USA's misery

What misery? 

[F1erce 88]

This post aged very poorly  

[purdygood 306]

1 hour ago, Sean Mooney said:

Georgia changed their abortion law to 6 weeks in 2022 on July 20th. There is the thing still about the life of the mother- I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that by changing the language and some parameters (which the 2022 bill did) it creates more legal hurdles to run through before surgeries. 

Also, none of the articles I linked used the phrase "stripped constitutional rights." Perhaps Propublica did which- yeah that is heavily left- no sh!t. Kamala may have....of course she will paint the extreme. 

Women can randomly miss a period and think they are pregnant.  When they are not.   Also, my cousin was diagnosed with Endometriosis and told she couldn't have kids.  Guess what, she found out after 3 months she was pregnant.  Old christian white dudes should not be telling women what to do with their bodies. At the Federal or State level.  They have no clue.

[HotRod 35]

If Trump went back to pro choice this contest would be over.

[Strike 4,869]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yes you reminded me of that comment dozens of times, so I took your advice. Now I look at aggregate polls. You were right then. Why are you choosing to ignore them now and cherry pick? 

You might have a point if you consistently only posted 538 or other aggregators.  But you don't.  You consistently cherry pick polls and ignore the ones like the one I posted earlier that don't fit your narrative.  I'm like @supermike80.  I think polls are sh*t.  I only post them to show what a hypocritical, biased POS you are.  HTH.

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

10 minutes ago, purdygood said:

Women can randomly miss a period and think they are pregnant.  When they are not.   Also, my cousin was diagnosed with Endometriosis and told she couldn't have kids.  Guess what, she found out after 3 months she was pregnant.  Old christian white dudes should not be telling women what to do with their bodies. At the Federal or State level.  They have no clue.

Exactly- some women have irregular periods (for a variety of medical issues) and wouldn't even know they were pregnant. Some women get their periods every 7 or 8 weeks. 

I understand people wanting to protect abortion rights and I understand people wanting to outlaw them or make them very hard to get. I just wish the lawmakers on both sides would listen to the advice of medical professionals in crafting these laws. Like 15-20 weeks is a reasonable cutoff time. 

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

4 minutes ago, Strike said:

You might have a point if you consistently only posted 538 or other aggregators.  But you don't.  You consistently cherry pick polls and ignore the ones like the one I posted earlier that don't fit your narrative.  I'm like @supermike80.  I think polls are sh*t.  I only post them to show what a hypocritical, biased POS you are.  HTH.

Polls are essentially like betting odds on sports. It's silly to look too hard into them beyond that unless you are deeply diving into the methodology of how the study is conducted (case in point any poll that is essentially conducted over a landline should be tossed right the hell out. As should any poll that is of "all adults" as opposed to "all registered to vote adults")

They are just snapshots of time. As of now- it looks like as of 09/18 that Kamala Harris is getting a debate bump in the most recent 538 aggregate polling data. 

[Fireballer 2,608]

51 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

I'm not sure why you are hammering the abortion thing. I never said it was an abortion. I speculated that the doctor's were perhaps unsure how to proceed considering the surgery would be required from an abortion related event.

In 2019, the Georgia legislature passed a "fetal heartbeat" law known as the LIFE Act. The law had the support of Gov. Brian Kemp, who signed it into effect. The LIFE Act prohibits most abortions once a physician can detect the supposed cardiac activity of the fetus, which lawmakers have estimated at six weeks of pregnancy. So the timeline changed from 22 weeks down to 6 weeks. It should also be noted medical experts usually think it is not until 9-10 weeks before the fetal heart forms. The law provides exceptions for abortion in cases of medical emergencies, medically futile pregnancies, and pregnancies that resulted from rape or incest. It also provides that procedures to remove a deceased fetus or an ectopic pregnancy do not constitute an abortion. Additionally at the time the bill was being discussed many doctors indicated that some of the language was too vague. A D&C is traditionally used as a means of managing a miscarriage or look at uterine bleeding but it is a medically acceptable way to perform an abortion and I think that is where the debate came from in this. Doctors most likely needed to be sure they were in solid legal standing with it all. 

So again- I'm not saying the procedure itself was an abortion. It's clear the lady took medicine for an abortion that she received from a clinic in NC because her pregnancy was at 9 weeks when the 6 week ban was instituted (so she would've been in violation of the law at that point.) She then had a medical reaction that like 32 people have had in all the time the meds have been administered and there was a delay in issuing care for a variety of reasons. It will be interesting to see more come out on the story as to what caused the delay. 

 

Here is some stuff on Georgia abortion laws:

 

https://www.findlaw.com/state/georgia-law/georgia-abortion-laws.html

https://dph.georgia.gov/document/document/updatedwrtkbrochure/download

I’m hammering the abortion definition because if a procedure doesn’t meet the legal definition, then all of the discussion about GA abortion law, Rowe, and Trump is not applicable. Hence, my original post calling all of this bullshat that Kamala is bringing it up.

[The Real timschochet 5,398]

23 minutes ago, Strike said:

You might have a point if you consistently only posted 538 or other aggregators.  But you don't.  You consistently cherry pick polls and ignore the ones like the one I posted earlier that don't fit your narrative.  I'm like @supermike80.  I think polls are sh*t.  I only post them to show what a hypocritical, biased POS you are.  HTH.

You’re so full of crap. Carry on. 

[Reality 3,055]

16 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

I’m hammering the abortion definition because if a procedure doesn’t meet the legal definition, then all of the discussion about GA abortion law, Rowe, and Trump is not applicable. Hence, my original post calling all of this bullshat that Kamala is bringing it up.

Yup, sadly, this was just an old fashioned case of run of mill malpractice. 

It sucks that politics is in such a place that a tragedy like this is being used to push an agenda.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/healthcare/3157561/fact-check-harris-blames-abortion-restriction-georgia-woman-death/

[OldMaid 2,125]

9 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

I’m hammering the abortion definition because if a procedure doesn’t meet the legal definition, then all of the discussion about GA abortion law, Rowe, and Trump is not applicable. Hence, my original post calling all of this bullshat that Kamala is bringing it up.

Seems to me the law hinges on the term "spontaneous abortion" in regards to this case.  I’m not sure a medically induced abortion qualifies. I didn’t read the whole brochure, so if that term is clarified somewhere else, that would be helpful.

Quote

The law does not prohibit the removal of a dead unborn child caused by a spontaneous abortion or the removal of an ectopic pregnancy.

 

[The Real timschochet 5,398]

Interest rate cut should help Kamala as well. 

[Fireballer 2,608]

14 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

Seems to me the law hinges on the term "spontaneous abortion" in regards to this case.  I’m not sure a medically induced abortion qualifies. I didn’t read the whole brochure, so if that term is clarified somewhere else, that would be helpful.

 

Those may be carve outs for more common scenerios, but “not an abortion” isn’t limited to those scenarios.  I think you would be hard pressed to articulate PC in this scenario given the demands of the code.

“with knowledge that termination will, with reasonable likelihood, cause the death of an unborn child;”

Im  sure ultrasounds and a variety of diagnostics were done to confirm the situation.  Remember, all this has to be articulated into an affidavit or warrant.  All elements of the code have to be met. This would have been a nothing burger. 

[purdygood 306]

36 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Exactly- some women have irregular periods (for a variety of medical issues) and wouldn't even know they were pregnant. Some women get their periods every 7 or 8 weeks. 

I understand people wanting to protect abortion rights and I understand people wanting to outlaw them or make them very hard to get. I just wish the lawmakers on both sides would listen to the advice of medical professionals in crafting these laws. Like 15-20 weeks is a reasonable cutoff time. 

I got a ex girlfriend pregnant one time, she had a miscarriage after 4 months. It was awful for both of us.  I guess my DNA is murderous.  Or God just wanted it to happen.

[Horseman 2,036]

37 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Polls are essentially like betting odds on sports.

Oooof.

[Hardcore troubadour 14,284]

Virginia in play

[OldMaid 2,125]

3 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Those may be carve outs for more common scenerios, but “not an abortion” isn’t limited to those scenarios.  I think you would be hard pressed to articulate PC in this scenario given the demands of the code.

“with knowledge that termination will, with reasonable likelihood, cause the death of an unborn child;”

Im  sure ultrasounds and a variety of diagnostics were done to confirm the situation.  Remember, all this has to be articulated into an affidavit or warrant.  All elements of the code have to be met. This would have been a nothing burger. 

My google search for the term "spontaneous abortion" only resulted in definitions of a miscarriage. So…

[Horseman 2,036]

2 hours ago, The Psychic Observer said:

This is called cherry picking data.  It's when you present outlier data as truth while ignoring the rest of the data set.

Earlier I posted favorability numbers for Kamala Harris that were positive.  I posted a link to a site called 538, it's a poll aggregator.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/kamala-harris/

You can see her favorability is positive while Trump's is negative.  You can also scroll down and see the Gallup poll that you shared as the outlier, along with a few others which are less outliers and a bit older.  You can see 13 positive polls the past few weeks.

Always good to get the big picture and I recommend you visit 538 in the future.

 

 

19 hours ago, Horseman said:

538 predicted Hillary to win 70% of the time and she looses big time.

538 predicted Biden to win 90% of the time and the race was decided by 50,000 votes.

Hey guys 538 has Harris winning 60% of the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A self lobotomy wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

 

[Fireballer 2,608]

1 minute ago, OldMaid said:

My google search for the term "spontaneous abortion" only resulted in definitions of a miscarriage. So…

What I’m saying is those are two common examples of procedures where a non viable fetus is removed. Just because the code mentions those, doesn’t mean that other scenarios where a non viable fetus is removed are illegal.  

[OldMaid 2,125]

7 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

What I’m saying is those are two common examples of procedures where a non viable fetus is removed. Just because the code mentions those, doesn’t mean that other scenarios where a non viable fetus is removed are illegal.  

It sure does seem like there is a bunch of grey areas… 

I did however do a little more digging on the story. Ultimately, it looks like she waited too long to seek care and developed sepsis, which prevented them from doing a timely D&C. 

Now there is an argument to be made on whether or not these new laws had an impact on her decision making process but it would clearly be speculation.

[HellToupee 1,289]

Well the momentum has shifted within the teamsters 

[Fireballer 2,608]

14 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

It sure does seem like there is a bunch of grey areas… 

 

Like I said, a detective would have to articulate in writing how this physician knowingly killed a fetus by removing remaining tissue from a 4 day old pharmaceutical abortion.  
 

14 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

 

I did however do a little more digging on the story. Ultimately, it looks like she waited too long to seek care and developed sepsis, which prevented them from doing a timely D&C. 

Now there is an argument to be made on whether or not these new laws had an impact on her decision making process but it would clearly be speculation.

This is sad, and would obviously be worse if she was very sick immediately after, but felt like she couldn’t do anything about it.  I would have thought that the MD in NC would have been obligated to provide her with some follow up in GA.  I’m personally kinda neutral on abortion in general.  I don’t like the idea of it just seen as birth control and it would seem logical to put some type of limit on it.  I think most people fall somewhere in the at 22 week window.  Other than that, I don’t see the point of being much more restrictive.  Medical practitioners shouldn’t  have to worry about legal issues, but this case isnt the hill to die on.

[The Real timschochet 5,398]

11 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Well the momentum has shifted within the teamsters 

Teamsters are salt of the earth people, nicest guys you’re ever gonna meet. I’ve known a few and they’re awesome, 

They got this one wrong. They think Trump would protect their interests. They like the tariffs. Understandable but short-sided. That’s all right. Harris will win but it will work out OK for the Teamsters anyhow. 

[The Real timschochet 5,398]

35 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Virginia in play

Harris leads by 9 points there. If that’s in play, then so is Texas, Florida and Iowa. (The last two might really be in play.) 

You know what state Trump thinks is in play? New York .He’s campaigning there today. Brilliant move. 

 

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

1 hour ago, Fireballer said:

I’m hammering the abortion definition because if a procedure doesn’t meet the legal definition, then all of the discussion about GA abortion law, Rowe, and Trump is not applicable. Hence, my original post calling all of this bullshat that Kamala is bringing it up.

And again I'm pointing out that we don't know what caused the delay. There is a legal grey area that the hospital has to be sure of with regards to how the law is written. And that legal grey area surrounds abortion stuff. 

Yes the Kamala team is making political hay out of it and the Trump team is making political hay out of overturning it because "it's what people wanted". 

 

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

32 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

It sure does seem like there is a bunch of grey areas… 

I did however do a little more digging on the story. Ultimately, it looks like she waited too long to seek care and developed sepsis, which prevented them from doing a timely D&C. 

Now there is an argument to be made on whether or not these new laws had an impact on her decision making process but it would clearly be speculation.

I agree this is important. She ended up going to NC to get the meds because at the point of her pregnancy she was past the point of Georgia's new rules. But you have to draw some more connections in that scenario

[Sean Mooney 1,816]

48 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Like I said, a detective would have to articulate in writing how this physician knowingly killed a fetus by removing remaining tissue from a 4 day old pharmaceutical abortion.  
 

This is sad, and would obviously be worse if she was very sick immediately after, but felt like she couldn’t do anything about it.  I would have thought that the MD in NC would have been obligated to provide her with some follow up in GA.  I’m personally kinda neutral on abortion in general.  I don’t like the idea of it just seen as birth control and it would seem logical to put some type of limit on it.  I think most people fall somewhere in the at 22 week window.  Other than that, I don’t see the point of being much more restrictive.  Medical practitioners shouldn’t  have to worry about legal issues, but this case isnt the hill to die on.

I saw in an article somewhere that because of traffic she was unable to make her appointment within the 15 minute grace period provided by the center and thus they wouldn't see her so they gave her the meds had her take them and then said she should take the rest later. 

[OldMaid 2,125]

38 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

Like I said, a detective would have to articulate in writing how this physician knowingly killed a fetus by removing remaining tissue from a 4 day old pharmaceutical abortion.  
 

This is sad, and would obviously be worse if she was very sick immediately after, but felt like she couldn’t do anything about it.  I would have thought that the MD in NC would have been obligated to provide her with some follow up in GA.  I’m personally kinda neutral on abortion in general.  I don’t like the idea of it just seen as birth control and it would seem logical to put some type of limit on it.  I think most people fall somewhere in the at 22 week window.  Other than that, I don’t see the point of being much more restrictive.  Medical practitioners shouldn’t  have to worry about legal issues, but this case isnt the hill to die on.

 

It seems you are correct- even more digging produced a legal pamphlet which lays out exactly what the law states:

https://abortiondefensenetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Georgia_ADN-Know-Your-State_Feb-2024.pdf 

A D&C after a failed medical abortion is legal in GA. Not sure why this information isn’t easier to find. 

I do agree that the stories being run about this are wildly misleading, but I will stand by the fact that if they hadn’t instituted these new laws, she would probably still be alive. But shame on the media for portraying in the light that they are.

I concur with your stance on abortion and will add that I get being pro life. I understand the argument that some people find it morally wrong. But I draw the line on their morals taking precedence over the person that is experiencing it. It doesn’t affect them (pro-lifers) one iota. The only people who should have a say in this are the mother/father and her doctor. 

[Fnord 1,740]

3 hours ago, Fireballer said:

Cool.  Then you can give me a link to go read about the changes.  Did the definition of abortion change?  None of it matters though, this is still on the docs/ hospital.  20 hour wait is not excusable.  

If you're a medical provider at a hospital and your legal department hasn't gotten clarification on a poorly worded law that affects how you practice, you're not going to risk your license and career over ambiguity. If said ambiguity does not exist, that woman is seen immediately. 

This is squarely on legislators that wrote a shlt law. Blood, meet hands.

[Fireballer 2,608]

7 minutes ago, Fnord said:

If you're a medical provider at a hospital and your legal department hasn't gotten clarification on a poorly worded law that affects how you practice, you're not going to risk your license and career over ambiguity. If said ambiguity does not exist, that woman is seen immediately. 

This is squarely on legislators that wrote a shlt law. Blood, meet hands.

What is so ambiguous about the law and how did said ambiguity apply here?

[Maximum Overkill 1,472]

 

 

[Fireballer 2,608]

40 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

I saw in an article somewhere that because of traffic she was unable to make her appointment within the 15 minute grace period provided by the center and thus they wouldn't see her so they gave her the meds had her take them and then said she should take the rest later. 

Holy shat  that’s terrible

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,493]

13 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

What is so ambiguous about the law and how did said ambiguity apply here?

You know you've won your argument when fnretard opens his yap.

[Reality 3,055]

1 hour ago, OldMaid said:

 

It seems you are correct- even more digging produced a legal pamphlet which lays out exactly what the law states:

https://abortiondefensenetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Georgia_ADN-Know-Your-State_Feb-2024.pdf 

A D&C after a failed medical abortion is legal in GA. Not sure why this information isn’t easier to find. 

I do agree that the stories being run about this are wildly misleading, but I will stand by the fact that if they hadn’t instituted these new laws, she would probably still be alive. But shame on the media for portraying in the light that they are.

I concur with your stance on abortion and will add that I get being pro life. I understand the argument that some people find it morally wrong. But I draw the line on their morals taking precedence over the person that is experiencing it. It doesn’t affect them (pro-lifers) one iota. The only people who should have a say in this are the mother/father and her doctor.