VP Debate: Vance vs Walz

[jerryskids 6,165]

6 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

Every instance of Trump’s supposed election "fraud" claims were gone over with a fine tooth comb and litigated-which would have involved more than the person/persons who committed such "fraud"- so there’s that. You’re also conveniently leaving out that I left it open that MDC’s assertion was correct. 

 

Trump's claims/lawsuits largely revolved around counting ballots.  I would hope that in 2020 we had the technology to count ballots, which was never the concern IMO.

The primary issue, which I mentioned earlier today, is that by shotgun blasting ballots out in many states which had previously had no such system, there was no mechanism to find fraud.  As a systems expert, this is obvious to me, but it long ago became clear that it would be a Spinal Tap "this one goes to 11" discussion whenever I bring it up.

Also, PA violated their election laws by accepting undated and late ballots.  For SCOTUS, primarily Roberts, IMO that was probably best, because had those votes gotten thrown out, mayhem may have ensued.  It's unfortunate that the Chief Justice felt the need to make a decision based on politics vs. law, but it's happened before.

That all being said, I've never argued that Trump won.  Instead, I've argued that it was not unintelligent to question the end results.   

 

[OldMaid 2,108]

4 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Trump's claims/lawsuits largely revolved around counting ballots.  I would hope that in 2020 we had the technology to count ballots, which was never the concern IMO.

The primary issue, which I mentioned earlier today, is that by shotgun blasting ballots out in many states which had previously had no such system, there was no mechanism to find fraud. As a systems expert, this is obvious to me, but it long ago became clear that it would be a Spinal Tap "this one goes to 11" discussion whenever I bring it up.

Also, PA violated their election laws by accepting undated and late ballots.  For SCOTUS, primarily Roberts, IMO that was probably best, because had those votes gotten thrown out, mayhem may have ensued.  It's unfortunate that the Chief Justice felt the need to make a decision based on politics vs. law, but it's happened before.

That all being said, I've never argued that Trump won.  Instead, I've argued that it was not unintelligent to question the end results.   

 

Could you please expound on that.

[Jeff Probst 59]

Trump has cried fraud and rigged going back to when the apprentice lost the Emmy.  Every focking election he says was stolen and rigged going back to the 2012.  It's who he is.

So no, there was nothing intelligent about crying rigged in 2020, especially now since everything he cried about has been proven false.

[Reality 3,043]

Just now, OldMaid said:

Could you please expound on that.

LoL. Oh boy.

[Horseman 1,986]

7 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

Could you please expound on that.

Our state has signature verification, and if the signature on the ballot doesn't match the signature on file the ballot doesn't count.  Because of covid many states did the opposite of that.  Most didn't have signature verification implemented in time and many passed laws to count every ballot turned in regardless of there being a verification process in place.  

[Jeff Probst 59]

3 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Our state has signature verification, and if the signature on the ballot doesn't match the signature on file the ballot doesn't count.  Because of covid many states did the opposite of that.  Most didn't have signature verification implemented in time and many passed laws to count every ballot turned in regardless of there being a verification process in place.  

This has been proven false.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/facebook-posts/most-states-require-signature-verification-mail-ba/

Stop getting your news from Facebook you dope. 

[jerryskids 6,165]

4 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

Could you please expound on that.

Sure.  States like AZ (mine) have had absentee voting for decades; I've done it for like 30 years.  It's more of a pull vs. push system, where you explicitly sign up for it, and it is regularly confirmed.  Such people are dedicated voters, and unlikely to participate in fraud.

@Strikeinformed me today that CO has been doing a system for multiple elections where they send out ballots to all registered voters, but they also have had mechanisms in place to scrub their voter lists.

The issue in 2020 was that states which had previously had no such systems in place, mailed out ballots to everyone who was registered.  Prior to then, there wasn't much motivation to scrub their voter lists, since the odds of somebody coming in to vote as somebody else were pretty low.  But all of a sudden, ballots were going out to anyone registered, many of whom had moved on.  What happened to those ballots?

Also keep in mind, in states like yours (CA), here is the requirement to register:

Quote

Under state law and the California Motor Voter program, DMV customers who indicate they are eligible to vote will be automatically registered to vote, unless they opt out during their DL/ID or change of address transaction.

Again, I'm not saying that there was cheating.  I'm saying that there were no mechanisms in place to catch it.  Hopefully in the time since then, states have cleaned up their voter rolls. 

[The Real timschochet 5,232]

36 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Instead, I've argued that it was not unintelligent to question the end results. 

 

It absolutely is. Because even in the closest states in 2020, the margin of victory is too wide. If you question the results you’re either uninformed or dishonest. There are no other options. 

[thegeneral 2,490]

19 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Sure.  States like AZ (mine) have had absentee voting for decades; I've done it for like 30 years.  It's more of a pull vs. push system, where you explicitly sign up for it, and it is regularly confirmed.  Such people are dedicated voters, and unlikely to participate in fraud.

@Strikeinformed me today that CO has been doing a system for multiple elections where they send out ballots to all registered voters, but they also have had mechanisms in place to scrub their voter lists.

The issue in 2020 was that states which had previously had no such systems in place, mailed out ballots to everyone who was registered.  Prior to then, there wasn't much motivation to scrub their voter lists, since the odds of somebody coming in to vote as somebody else were pretty low.  But all of a sudden, ballots were going out to anyone registered, many of whom had moved on.  What happened to those ballots?

Also keep in mind, in states like yours (CA), here is the requirement to register:

Again, I'm not saying that there was cheating.  I'm saying that there were no mechanisms in place to catch it.  Hopefully in the time since then, states have cleaned up their voter rolls. 

Can you post some links regarding which states you are referring to?

[OldMaid 2,108]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

No they weren't.  Many of the lawsuits were never adjudicated on their merits but thrown out for specious reasons such as "no standing." 

I’d love to hear why you think this is some big flex.

[OldMaid 2,108]

29 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Sure.  States like AZ (mine) have had absentee voting for decades; I've done it for like 30 years.  It's more of a pull vs. push system, where you explicitly sign up for it, and it is regularly confirmed.  Such people are dedicated voters, and unlikely to participate in fraud.

@Strikeinformed me today that CO has been doing a system for multiple elections where they send out ballots to all registered voters, but they also have had mechanisms in place to scrub their voter lists.

The issue in 2020 was that states which had previously had no such systems in place, mailed out ballots to everyone who was registered.  Prior to then, there wasn't much motivation to scrub their voter lists, since the odds of somebody coming in to vote as somebody else were pretty low.  But all of a sudden, ballots were going out to anyone registered, many of whom had moved on.  What happened to those ballots?

Also keep in mind, in states like yours (CA), here is the requirement to register:

Again, I'm not saying that there was cheating.  I'm saying that there were no mechanisms in place to catch it.  Hopefully in the time since then, states have cleaned up their voter rolls. 

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I appreciate it. 

While I can’t recall every single lawsuit that the Trump team filed, I would think if this was a legitimate concern, it would have been one of them, no?

[jerryskids 6,165]

27 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Can you post some links regarding which states you are referring to?

I'll start with this link:

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-voting-what-has-changed-2020

Quote

During the primaries, states varied in the efforts they took to expand access to absentee or mail voting in light of the pandemic. The majority of states that did not already have expansive mail voting options on the books took significant steps to expand access to absentee voting for the primaries, the general election, or both, although there were notable exceptions.footnote2_0hyrfqsmxo6d5DmivapyhzCQwbgrGtBjcJU7G1Cwuc_gO3qdSMngzBv2 Some states, like Connecticut, Delaware, and Nevada, took especially robust steps. A handful of states, including Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Texas, made few or no changes to their voting procedures to promote increased absentee voting. Among the minority of states that have not willingly expanded access to mail-in voting, several have been compelled to do so by courts.

 

[BrahmaBulls 627]

1 hour ago, Jeff Probst said:

This has been proven false.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/facebook-posts/most-states-require-signature-verification-mail-ba/

Stop getting your news from Facebook you dope. 

Welcome back, GutterPedo

[jerryskids 6,165]

27 minutes ago, OldMaid said:

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I appreciate it. 

While I can’t recall every single lawsuit that the Trump team filed, I would think if this was a legitimate concern, it would have been one of them, no?

I don't recall the specifics of the lawsuits either; rather, I recall thinking that challenges to ballot counts were stupid.

Were I to speculate, I would say that mail-in ballots have long been found valid, and states have leeway as to how they handle it, and the absence of fraud minimization mechanisms are not a valid legal argument.   

[The Real timschochet 5,232]

Probably the most shameful aspect of the whole 2020 thing is the unwillingness of these folks to actually say the election was stolen. It’s always “I’m not saying Trump won, I’m saying there are legitimate questions.” Many of these same people pulled the same exact crap when they questioned Obama’s birth certificate- “I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii, BUT-“ 

Focking cowards. 

[Hardcore troubadour 14,163]

As I have maintained since 2020, Trump may not have won,  it that crusty old corrupt jackass Biden didn’t get 81 million votes. More black votes than Obama. Suuuuure. 

[supermike80 1,599]

Oh for the love of christ move on will you dummies???

[jerryskids 6,165]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Probably the most shameful aspect of the whole 2020 thing is the unwillingness of these folks to actually say the election was stolen. It’s always “I’m not saying Trump won, I’m saying there are legitimate questions.” Many of these same people pulled the same exact crap when they questioned Obama’s birth certificate- “I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii, BUT-“ 

Focking cowards. 

Color me shameful, because I argue both.  My general model is that if the Left comes up with a dehumanizing label, they are likely trying to hide something.  Election denier$#@!  Birther$#@!

Obama's book publicity company said he was born in Kenya.  God forbid people thought that might be true.  Dummies.   

[thegeneral 2,490]

17 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I'll start with this link:

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/mail-voting-what-has-changed-2020

 

Expanding access to absentee ballots is very vague. Do you have info regarding what you have described as “shotgunning” and how this took place?

From a practical standpoint this would really only be necessary to look at in the states that were very, very close.

[Hardcore troubadour 14,163]

As I have maintained since 2020, Trump may not have won,  it that crusty old corrupt jackass Biden didn’t get 81 million votes. More black votes than Obama. Suuuuure. 

[OldMaid 2,108]

14 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

I don't recall the specifics of the lawsuits either; rather, I recall thinking that challenges to ballot counts were stupid.

Were I to speculate, I would say that mail-in ballots have long been found valid, and states have leeway as to how they handle it, and the absence of fraud minimization mechanisms are not a valid legal argument.   

I’m fairly positive that there would have been all sorts of lawsuits surrounding this. I’m sure if I felt like going down the rabbit hole, I could probably find some. I do however remember there being all kinds of challenges to the new election rules put in place for covid. They litigated everything they possibly could before and after the election and if I remember correctly-they only won one. That should tell you everything you need to know.

 

[jerryskids 6,165]

1 minute ago, thegeneral said:

Expanding access to absentee ballots is very vague. Do you have info regarding what you have described as “shotgunning” and how this took place?

From a practical standpoint this would really only be necessary to look at in the states that were very, very close.

As I explained earlier today, "absentee" is not "mail-in."  Absentee is a pull system, where voters request a ballot. 

States like CO which had "push" mail-in ballot distributions had scrubbed their voter lists to minimize fraud.  States which did not have scrubbed lists for such push systems, yet sent out ballots anyway, are what I am calling "shotgunning."  

I realize that most people don't understand these nuances so I'm about done with this discussion.   

[OldMaid 2,108]

Could somebody pat HT on the head? He’s begging for some acknowledgement.

[Horseman 1,986]

1 hour ago, Jeff Probst said:

This has been proven false.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/30/facebook-posts/most-states-require-signature-verification-mail-ba/

Stop getting your news from Facebook you dope. 

Says the guy linking to Politifact.

Politifact has left bias, something an outfit that claims to fact check shouldn't have.  According to Allsides.   You're gutterboy dumb.  

[thegeneral 2,490]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

As I explained earlier today, "absentee" is not "mail-in."  Absentee is a pull system, where voters request a ballot. 

States like CO which had "push" mail-in ballot distributions had scrubbed their voter lists to minimize fraud.  States which did not have scrubbed lists for such push systems, yet sent out ballots anyway, are what I am calling "shotgunning."  

I realize that most people don't understand these nuances so I'm about done with this discussion.   

Yes which states did that in 2020 and what was their process. I have looked a bit and didn’t see this.

[The Real timschochet 5,232]

12 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Color me shameful, because I argue both.  My general model is that if the Left comes up with a dehumanizing label, they are likely trying to hide something.  Election denier$#@!  Birther$#@!

Obama's book publicity company said he was born in Kenya.  God forbid people thought that might be true.  Dummies.   

Yeah I like you Jerry but I think you’re being shameful. I think that deep down you know what a scumbag this guy Trump is and yet you’re willing to defend him on this crap. You’re empowering him. 

[Jeff Probst 59]

4 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Says the guy linking to Politifact.

Politifact has left bias, something an outfit that claims to fact check shouldn't have.  According to Allsides.   You're gutterboy dumb.  

Attack the source, the last resort of the galactically stupid

 

[jerryskids 6,165]

4 minutes ago, thegeneral said:

Yes which states did that in 2020 and what was their process. I have looked a bit and didn’t see this.

That's a big ask.  Here is a scorecard from the Brookings Institute, where higher grades seem associated with ease of mail-in balloting.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/voting-by-mail-in-a-pandemic-a-state-by-state-scorecard/

[Jeff Probst 59]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yeah I like you Jerry but I think you’re being shameful. I think that deep down you know what a scumbag this guy Trump is and yet you’re willing to defend him on this crap. You’re empowering him. 

Don't let em fool you.  Deep down they are scumbags too.  Trump gives them an excuse to act like it.

[Horseman 1,986]

1 minute ago, Jeff Probst said:

Attack the source, the last resort of the galactically stupid

 

Almost as bad as putting out a fictional source like Facebook then trying to discredit it with a left wing "fact check" outlet?  

You're not winning any intelligence awards here Gutterboy.  

[jerryskids 6,165]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Probst said:

Attack the source, the last resort of the galactically stupid

 

You have a Mephisto vibe.  Tries to win arguments by calling people galactically stupid, moron, etc.  Created this alias in 2005 and first post was 2023; that's a long time to wait to be a troll.  I hope you are still with MMM and all is well.   

[Jeff Probst 59]

4 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Almost as bad as putting out a fictional source like Facebook then trying to discredit it with a left wing "fact check" outlet?  

You're not winning any intelligence awards here Gutterboy.  

Then let's go back to your original lie, that most states did not have signature verification and most states passed laws to count every ballot with no verification.  Do you have anything to back this up?  Man up piss boy.

[jerryskids 6,165]

8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Yeah I like you Jerry but I think you’re being shameful. I think that deep down you know what a scumbag this guy Trump is and yet you’re willing to defend him on this crap. You’re empowering him. 

Oh, I think Trump is a scumbag, although I'm not clear what I'm exactly defending him on.  I think Kamala is a scumbag as well.  She just has better political lipstick on the pig, unburdened by what has been, so you don't see it.

7 minutes ago, Jeff Probst said:

Don't let em fool you.  Deep down they are scumbags too.  Trump gives them an excuse to act like it.

I can't believe I ever questioned your intelligence, this is spot on.   

[Jeff Probst 59]

6 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

You have a Mephisto vibe.  Tries to win arguments by calling people galactically stupid, moron, etc.  Created this alias in 2005 and first post was 2023; that's a long time to wait to be a troll.  I hope you are still with MMM and all is well.   

You're a idiot.

Lemme guess, you got COVID?

[thegeneral 2,490]

5 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

That's a big ask.  Here is a scorecard from the Brookings Institute, where higher grades seem associated with ease of mail-in balloting.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/voting-by-mail-in-a-pandemic-a-state-by-state-scorecard/

I’m on a phone so is very hard to parse through all this. I thought you were aware of states that did this since you have repeated it many times so is why I am asking. Not trying to be an asss, often I am but usually only when some dope is going bananas .

I did click on that area that you just posted earlier and it wasn’t specific either. So still not really sure to what level that ballots were just given out with very poor ways to track.

In any case, if states that were close did this perhaps your idea that we can’t know would be worth looking at. If it wasn’t states that were close it is reasonable to disregard, no?

I would have expected as @OldMaid mentioned that this would have been a highlight of the various lawsuits that got tossed and would be easily recalled.

One thing I did seem to see repeated on this site is that many lawsuits are about restricting access to ballots (seem to always on behalf of Republicans). This is very dumb  There are processes in place that do make this “safe” every state should have this. I would hope everyone would want this. It works and there are states which have the blueprints.

[Horseman 1,986]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Probst said:

Then let's go back to your original lie, that most states did not have signature verification and most states passed laws to count every ballot with no verification.  Do you have anything to back this up?  Man up piss boy.

I see the problem. Gutterboy tiny brain reading issue.  

Most of the states that implemented mail in quickly in 2020 because of covid.  Some of those being swing states. 

Does that catch you up to the rest of us now?

[jerryskids 6,165]

6 minutes ago, Jeff Probst said:

You're a idiot.

Lemme guess, you got COVID?

Wut?  I'm a idiot?  I got COVID?  Can you translate this to English?

[Horseman 1,986]

Just now, thegeneral said:

I’m on a phone so is very hard to parse through all this. I thought you were aware of states that did this since you have repeated it many times so is why I am asking. Not trying to be an asss, often I am but usually only when some dope is going bananas .

I did click on that area that you just posted earlier and it wasn’t specific either. So still not really sure to what level that ballots were just given out with very poor ways to track.

In any case, if states that were close did this perhaps your idea that we can’t know would be worth looking at. If it wasn’t states that were close it is reasonable to disregard, no?

I would have expected as @OldMaid mentioned that this would have been a highlight of the various lawsuits that got tossed and would be easily recalled.

One thing I did seem to see repeated on this site is that many lawsuits are about restricting access to ballots (seem to always on behalf of Republicans). This is very dumb  There are processes in place that do make this “safe” every state should have this. I would hope everyone would want this. It works and there are states which have the blueprints.

Hint:  It's not the phone's fault.  More likely genetics.   

[thegeneral 2,490]

6 minutes ago, Horseman said:

Hint:  It's not the phone's fault.  More likely genetics.   

Speaking of genetics, look it’s tiny d1ck!

What does that page say about how ballots were sent out. Be specific.

[Jeff Probst 59]

15 minutes ago, Horseman said:

I see the problem. Gutterboy tiny brain reading issue.  

Most of the states that implemented mail in quickly in 2020 because of covid.  Some of those being swing states. 

Does that catch you up to the rest of us now?

Name a state that had no ballot verification or shut the fock up already.